Talk:Ranks and insignia of the Ordnungspolizei

Chef der Deutschen Polizei

Dear Husnock, regarding my correction on 12/21:

"Chef der Deutschen Polizei" would be, as far as I am concerned, the correct grammar. You did use it yourself correctly for the other ranks ("Generaloberst der", "General der"), and in all cases "der" (meaning "of the") refers to the feminine "Polizei", "dem" would be used to refer to a masculine noun (* see below).

Therefore, I kindly request a rollback to my version. If your sources indicate a different spelling, I'd be glad to evaluate them. But according to my humble knowledge of German grammar (after all, German is my native language), "dem" is incorrect.

Quite possibly, you are misled by "Deutschen", which in other cases than here is a masculine noun, and would be referred to as "dem Deutschen". However, "Chef der/m" refers to "Polizei" rather than to "Deutschen", hence the gender issue.

Hope this helps, Daniel

I think you are absolutely correct. I am trying to get a hold of some original documents with Himmler's letterhead. I was mislead by the infinitive, where der becomes dem. I should be able to verify which one it is in the very near future, based on what the original documents from WWII say. I think it is der. Good catch -Husnock 6Jan05

--

Did some quick Google-research: Himmler apparently became Head of the German police on june 17th, 1936 -- by hand of the Führer. According to [1], this title was then given to the "Reichsführer SS" (Himmler) upon centralizing the German police force. Also in 1936, probably at the same date, the title of "Chef der Deutschen Ordnungspolizei" was given to Kurt Daluege [2].

[1] http://www.calsky.com/lexikon/de/txt/h/he/heinrich_himmler.php [2] http://www.calsky.com/lexikon/de/txt/k/ku/kurt_daluege.php

(Sorry that these bios are in German -- maybe they can assist you in finding original documents. :-)

Daniel

Daluege was Chief of the Order Police. Himmler was Reich Leader of the SS and Chief of the German Police. There are hundreds of original documents which list Himmler's title as "Reichsfuhrer-SS und Chef der Deutschen Polizei". Daluege was also the only German Police General to hold the rank of Generaloberst der Polizei. However, he was never Chief of the German Police. That title was held by Himmler from 1936 - 1945. -Husnock 12Jan04

The official title that Himmler had since 17.6.1936 - until his promotion to Minister of the Interior in 1943- was "Reichsführer SS and Chief of the German Police in the Reich Ministry of the Interior" - RFSSuChdDtPol.i.RMdI - (RBGliV S. 487). Himmler did not want/have his own office in the Reich Ministry of the Interior, he was represented by one adjutant each (for the Order Police and for the Security Police). Chief of the Order Police was Kurt Daluege (1936 - 1943), followed by Alfred von Wünnenberg; chief of the Security Police was SS-Reinhard Heydrich who was already of SS-SD (1936-1942), followed by Ernst Kaltenbrunner. --Aschland (talk) 15:39, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Merge?

Disagree strongly. The Orpo had its own rank structure and insignia separate from the SS,of which it was never technically part. It reported to Himmler, but in his capacity as national police chief in the Interior Ministry, not as SS leader. Should remain Solicitr (talk) 18:36, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The article has sadly been gutted by the image police. It is only a shell of what it once was. It was for this reason that i suggested the merge, at least until things get fixed. -OberRanks (talk) 01:44, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I noticed that. I've started to restore the images using existing Wiki image files. I'll have to make my own second-pattern generals' Kragenspiegel, though. Solicitr (talk) 17:05, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

SS ranks

I don`t understand why SS-ranks are that (!) important in this context. It could be mentioned that some higher ranks and all highest ranks were SS-members and that they had an equivalent SS-rank. Max. 30% of higher ranks in the Ordungspolizei had SS-membership (in comparison to 66% in the Sicherheitspolizei,see Edward B. Westermann, Hitler`s Police Battaillions, 2005, p.102, p. 220). If an Orpo-Member joined the SS he still was a police officer in a police uniform, he could fix small SS-runes under the left breast-pocket of the Orpo-uniform, that was all. He was still addressed by his police rank and not his SS-rank. Even Delague as Chief of Orpo in the Ministry of Interior was addressed as "General der Polizei" (and dressed as such), he signed his orders as "General der Polizei". (In an SS-context, he was SS Obergruppenführer.) After the war many of those in the Orpo who joined the SS (very helpful for better careers!)claimed that they had not applied individually for membership, that they got their SS-rank automatically - which was not the case but helpful to start new careers after the war. --Aschland (talk) 12:28, 11 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It's valuable historical information, especially for later war reference after the founding of the SS and Police regiments in which most (if not all) of the Orpo leadership also held SS ranks. On a more broader tone, this article in itself could use a major expansion, fixing the pictures, adding in information about the uniforms, etc. I for one have been hands off since a lot of the stuff I could add here is prohibited for on-line posting under a contract I have for things that I publish professionally. I'll get around to it eventually. But, yes, the article needs work. -O.R.^Comms 15:31, 11 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]